Pediatric dentist and social media content creator Dr. Judy Yip shares her journey from pre-med to pediatric dentistry in this episode. She opens up about her decision to pivot from the MCAT to chasing her childhood dream of becoming a dentist and how a state-based student loan forgiveness program helped ease the financial burden. 

Is the DAT harder than the MCAT? Why is pediatric dentistry such a fulfilling career? How can pediatricians better educate parents on oral health? Dr. Judy Yip unpacks these questions while offering practical advice for parents and future dentists alike. Tune in for a fun and insightful conversation about following your passion, tackling dental education, and making kids smile! 

Here are four takeaways from this conversation with Dr. Judy Yip:

1. Career Pivot and Passion for Pediatric Dentistry

Dr. Judy Yip originally pursued a pre-med track with plans to become an OBGYN, even taking the MCAT. However, she pivoted to dentistry after realizing her passion for working with children and seeking a better work-life balance. Her journey included two gap years filled with part-time jobs and preparation for the DAT before entering dental school and later specializing in pediatric dentistry.

2. Student Loan Forgiveness and Financial Strategy

Dr. Yip emphasized the importance of financial planning in healthcare careers. She benefited from the CalHealthCares program, a California-based initiative that offers up to $300,000 in student loan forgiveness for professionals serving underserved communities. She encourages others to research similar programs in their states.

3. Debunking Pediatric Dental Myths

A common misconception she addressed is that cavities in baby teeth don’t matter because those teeth will fall out. In reality, baby teeth can remain until age 12, and untreated cavities can lead to serious issues. She advocates for early dental visits—by age one or within six months of the first tooth—and stresses the importance of education and habit formation.

4. Balancing Professionalism with Approachability

Dr. Yip uses a compassionate and flexible approach when working with parents, especially around topics like fluoride use and bottle feeding. She believes in educating without judgment and offering alternatives to meet families where they are. Her philosophy is rooted in building trust and positive experiences, even incorporating humor and social media to connect with a broader audience.

Transcript

Ned Palmer:

Are your comments going to be controversial in the orthodontic community? Like, do we need to look out based off your commentary?

Judy Yip:

I think they know that they get compensated well for the amount of effort they put in.

Michael Jerkins:

Welcome back to another episode of the podcast for Doctors by Doctors. I’m one of your co-hosts, Dr. Michael Jerkins, and we have our other co-host here, Dr. Ned Palmer. Dr. Palmer, how are you?

NP:

Well, afternoon, Dr. Jerkins.

MJ:

I think Ned that this is continuing the streak of having a different background for every episode that we’ve recorded. So where do you find yourself now? What is this? What is this background?

NP:

For our video attendees and participants in this podcast, I wanted to mix it up a little bit. I thought the white door behind you was maybe getting a little bland. So to counteract that, I thought I’d give them a different background every single time.

MJ:

And I see a map of the United States and it looks like it has some sort of drawn from where you’re located. Which, tell us where that is.

NP:

Yeah, Detroit, Michigan. So this is my fantasy office, which is in a World War II hanger, converted hanger from when there was a naval air station in the city of Detroit.

MJ:

Is this true?

NP:

Is it 100% true? This is a building from 1934. Yeah.

MJ:

Does it have asbestos?

NP:

I think this predates asbestos. This has like old school radon and mercury, like the good stuff, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah, none of this new agey poly fiber stuff. We’re going old school here, which there is something as pediatricians—leaded gasoline is still very commonly used in aviation. And so it is still like the standard for gasoline in most small engine, small plane aviation is leaded gasoline.

MJ:

Even better.

NP:

Not great as pediatricians. I think neither you or I are really big on that, but unfortunately, it is the reality still today.

MJ:

And what’s interesting is on my notes here for an intro, I didn’t have leaded gasoline as one of the topics, but nonetheless, here we are very excited about this.

NP:

You should.

I look when we talk to Dr. Yip as a pediatric dentist, I want to know what the complications are of lead in dentistry.

MJ:

That’s what I was about to say. Hey, we as two physicians that treat children are excited today to talk to a dentist who treats children. I have lots of questions myself as a parent, but also as a pediatrician. Very excited to talk to Dr. Yip about pediatric dentistry, her interesting journey to get where she is today and also I think hearing her perspective on what’s going on today in pediatric oral health. Maybe let’s just cut to the interview. What do you think?

NP:

I think let’s start with Dr. Yip.

MJ:

Here’s our interview with Dr. Judy Yip. Dr. Judy Yip was born and raised in the northern part of sunny California. She obtained her undergraduate degree at UC San Diego and received her DDS at the UCLA School of Dentistry and then completed her specialty training in pediatric dentistry at Yale School of Medicine. Dr. Judy believes that pediatric oral health involves the entire family and aspires to make each visit a positive environment for all.

She also believes in providing high quality care, especially when it comes to patient education, dental treatment, and patient-provider relationships. When Dr. Judy is not holding a hand piece, you can find her keeping busy with DIY projects, hiking, relaxing at the beach, or playing tennis. Dr. Judy, welcome to the podcast.

JY:

Thank you for having me. I’m excited to talk with you all.

MJ:

This is awesome. Maybe just off the cuff at the beginning, just tell us a little bit about your journey becoming a dentist and a pediatric dentist.

JY:

Yeah, my road towards dentistry was kind of a windy road. Actually, the first sign of me wanting to become a dentist was when I was, I believe in high school, when I had braces and I had a great orthodontist. I loved that place, super fun. And I was like, hey, I wanna come back and work for you, Dr. Kwan. And then that was my first sign. But then somewhere along the line, I think when I actually entered college, I was like, wait, hold on, I think…

I think delivering babies would be fun. So then I kind of switched my first quarter to pre-med. So I was actually pre-med all of undergrad, took the MCAT, was ready to apply. And then I think it was the month of graduation. I was like, wait, I know I took the MCAT and everything and I’m gonna apply, but something doesn’t feel right. So then I was, growing up I had this image of…

You know, having a great career and then also having a great family life, like coming home, eating family dinners every day. And I was like, I don’t think I can really do that if I wanna do like, go in the route of OBGYN, you know? So then I was like, wait, hold on, is that, do I really wanna be on call in the middle of the night? So then I just like, it was like out of nowhere one day, I just did a 180 and I’m like, no, I’m not gonna apply to medicine.

Didn’t tell my parents didn’t tell anyone and I was like, uh, I mean I was on the track of taking a year off anyway so I was like, I’m just gonna take this gap year to just see what I want to do and then I think because throughout the four years I was so focused on med school. I forgot about dentistry for a little bit and then so during the first couple months I was just exploring talking talking to everyone. I was like I was like pharmacy. No, I hate okay I’m like I can’t do that and then…

But I knew I wanted to be in healthcare. I was always fascinated with the human body science I loved, biology I loved. So I was like something in the realm of healthcare and then I talked to my friend and she was a dentist practicing in New York and she’s like, you should do dentistry. And I was like, yeah, I did have an interest in that. So during my gap year, kind of just, I actually ended up taking two gap years.

and did a whole bunch of random part-time jobs while I was studying for the DATs and then applying and then here I am now. I’m in six years into private practice, so.

MJ:

That is amazing.

NP:

Want to talk a little bit more about that gap. You’re like, what did you do to prepare yourself to make such a big change? It’s like you’d really invested almost like four years on the medical path. And it’s something we hear from people all the time, like switching is hard. Like, what can you talk a little bit more like you did a bunch of random things that helped you feel prepared? Clearly you were and clearly you’ve been successful. So I think it’s really important to maybe understand that.

JY:

Yeah, I think like for me during those gap years I was just obviously my new goal was getting into dental school now. Luckily for me like in undergrad all of my biology courses kind of transfer over so I didn’t have to take supplemental like courses at nighttime or anything. So I was pretty on that track anyway. The only thing that I had to do was really sit down, buckle down and study for the DATs which I did on the side, you know. And then in the meantime I had this…

You know, I’m like, my gosh, I just graduated. I have to pay back all these loans. So I kind of want to work to kind of make money too. I just don’t want to be like, whoa, you know, just have the time of my life.

NP:

It sounds nice, but yeah.

JY:

I…

Mixture of everything. I did part-time jobs so that I can have some income, but then I also, because it was a part-time job, I was able to take time off and kind of just travel, explore, but also had to really buckle down to really study for the DATs. So it was a lot of just navigating, just pivoting. Luckily, like I said, I already had the background, the science background, but I know people who kind of make a 180 in terms of like communications and then…

Science and they do have to take like night courses, which is exactly which is a big commitment, you know, luckily for me, it was just mainly studying for the DATs while I had that gap year.

NP:

Redo everything.

Gotcha. Well, what about the transition to pediatric dentistry? Were you similarly conflicted when you got to the end of your dental school? Were you ortho or, you know, orthodontic?

JY:

Yeah, I was pretty well, I love working with kids like even like ever since I started working at 16 it was like tutoring kids. It’s always something to do with kids. So I knew that it would be in the realm of like Pediatrics but going into dental school I in the back of my mind I knew I wanted to do pediatric dentistry but I wanted to keep an open mind in case something else piqued my interest and just nothing really did so I just kind of followed in that path there

NP:

Well, look, you’re talking to two physicians today, so sorry, it must be tough. Like, want you to talk to, look, dental residencies and fellowships are not the same as medical residencies and fellowships, right? And so can you explain for our listeners, like many of whom come from the medical side, just what are some of the differences or some of the unique features that you experienced in kind of applying to and getting access to a dental residency?

JY:

Right. First of all, see like residency like for medical school is just crazy to me, you know? And I can say dentistry is nowhere as tough, maybe the oral surgery track, but my experience was amazing. And you know, I can’t generalize, but it really depends on the program. But in terms of pediatric residency,

It’s an additional two years after dental school. And for me, it’s a mixture, you know, it can go two routes. You can find a program that’s very didactic, which means they’re research heavy. And there’s a clinical track, hospital dentistry, which is the route that I went. I wanted to be hands on. I wanted to feel like I was working already, you know? So I did a hospital-based program, which entails, you know, how…

Working in the clinic every day, working with kids, and then there’s also the hospital component where you are on call as the dental department of the ED. So we do get calls. And again, based on the program, your call can be really, really heavy or it can be really light. Mine was kind of in the middle. And it also depends on how many residents the program takes. Sometimes…

There’s a school that’s really well known that only accepts two residents and you’re balancing call just between you and your co-resident, which is, you can imagine you’re on call pretty much every day. For us, we had six residents and I was on call every six weeks. So you would take a call for one whole week and our calls weren’t bad. Like on a busy week, you would get called maybe once every day. I got really lucky.

When I was on call, at most I would get called twice a week and they weren’t too bad. There are a lot of traumas that happen in the middle of the night, like a broken tooth or something like that. And then we would have that component of general anesthesia in the OR. That was really fun for me. So it really depends on the program and what they’re kind of focusing on.

I found a great program for my needs and I felt like I was really prepared coming out of it. So I was like ready to jump in there and start practicing.

NP:

If you didn’t do pediatric dentistry, look again, two pediatricians, you don’t have to sell us on kids, but there’s also some things that I think we could all talk about. Sometimes challenging working with children. If you weren’t going into pediatric dentistry, what would you go into instead?

JY:

Yeah, I think about that a lot. And I think the next best thing is probably orthodontics. I look at them and I’m like a little jealous. I’m like, you don’t even have to deal with blood. You don’t even have to put on gloves to do your job. You know, it’s like, you know, it’s very aesthetic and like it’s they don’t even get their hands dirty at all. So I think because I’m so I gravitate towards the kids. That’s like another way I can like orthodontics work with kids.

NP:

Is, are your comments going to be controversial in the orthodontic community? Like, do we need to look out based on your, your commentary?

JY:

Yeah, no, I think they know that they get compensated well for the amount of effort they put in.

NP:

All right, fantastic. Good, good, good. And then you mentioned before, you mentioned your debt, right? And we were talking about undergrad debt, obviously, know, a dental school debt, medical school debt, veterinary school debt, mountains, mountains upon mountains at that point. If I can ask, was your residency program one that you were compensated for or did you have to pay for the residency program? So it’s also a big difference between medicine and dentistry.

JY:

There’s programs where you pay a tuition, but they also pay you, so it kind of like cancels out. I went to a program that was a stipend, they pay you. And that was one thing that also was very important for me when picking residency programs. I didn’t want to go into more debt, so it was really important for me to find a program that compensated me for my time. Because again, I was looking for a program that kind of was as similar as possible to what I would face in the real world, which is I wanted to feel like, yeah, put me to work and paint me.

NP:

And how have you managed now since then? How have you managed through that? Your student debt, still working through it like we all are?

JY:

Yeah, I think I’ve gotten really incredibly lucky in terms of paying that back. So just to give you a background, had debt all of undergrad—I took out loans for that. So I got grants and loans. So that I had a chunk of that rolled into my dental school debt and then residency. I got a stipend. So, during my time, let me try to think when I…

There’s a lot of grants out there. Like, as you know, public service loans, forgiveness programs, like if you worked in an underserved. So similarly to medicine, believe, dentistry, there’s a lot of programs. I got lucky with a program. Basically, if you see a percentage of underserved communities, you get up to $300,000 of your loan paid off. And this is over five years. Yeah, so…

So I heard about this and I applied every single year. I think I got it on the second year that I applied. So I am in the track of basic, I’m in my fourth or third year. I’m completing my fourth year of that service. So luckily they’re paying off a good chunk of my loans.

NP:

That’s fantastic. The name of that, is that the National Health Service Corps or is that a different state-based program?

JY:

I don’t know if you’ve heard of CalHealth Cares. They do medicine as well. They do a lot of pediatricians. Yeah, so it’s through CalHealth Cares.

NP:

Yeah. It’s through CalHealthCares. Okay, yeah, it’s a great state-based program. Unfortunately, I to be in California, but for those that are practicing in California, that’s a fantastic program that they have.

JY:

Yeah, and I always like encourage people to look into what programs their state offers or like the government offers just because it’s a great way. So I had already been working in an underserved community. So like I didn’t have to change much. It wasn’t like I had to find an office that kind of fulfilled the requirements. I was already working there. So a lot of the times a lot of people don’t know that these exist, you know, so I’ve been…

I’m always an advocate about finding out what type of service loans your state offers.

NP:

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it’s so patchy and variable that I think it unfortunately means there’s a lot of research needed to be done. I’m really glad you’re able to come down with something like CalHealthCares. It changes so much and frankly probably changes what your practice type can be then, right? And so, you’re able to do some more underserved, which is really great. So I know Michael wants to talk to you about your path into…

MJ:

Well to me it’s like when we talk to doctors about student debt a lot it’s people are just trying to survive like either residency or school or their first few years of practice and so like whatever the path of least resistance is is what they’re gonna travel and sometimes the thought is well I don’t have time and plus those programs don’t really work anyway, I just don’t want to think about it, but you’re leaving a lot of potential money on the table by just taking a little bit extra time, doing some research, there’s plenty of resources online, whether it be state based or federal based or even frankly, hospital system based, depending on where they are, where there’s really healthy loan forgiveness programs out there for doctors. So that’s amazing what you found. I was not familiar with that particular state based program, but that’s incredible.

JY:

Yeah, and I always say like talk to your colleagues, talk to people who are just fresh out and see what their situation is because if you don’t talk to people, you’ll never find out because you know, I found out through a friend, you know, and that’s why I’m it’s you kind of just want to like pay it forward. You know, if I found out through a friend, I’m going to tell everyone I can about it, you know.

MJ:

Makes sense. I did want to ask a question before we moved on. As someone who’s taken the MCAT and the DAT, I have to ask, which one did you find harder?

JY:

Honestly, okay, they’re so different because MCAT, it’s just a wealth of information that you need to store in your brain to execute is a lot. But I always talk about, the DAT is fun. I guess I know I’m destined for dentistry because I think this part is fun, but there’s a part called perceptual ability test. And it’s literally puzzles.

They make you look at something and they’re like, what’s the mirror image of this? Like they have a folded paper and they punch holes and they’re like, what will it look like when you open it up? It’s kind of like when you’re little and you made the snowflakes, you fold it up and then you cut it. There was literally a portion of that on the test. So in terms of material, like the amount of material you have to memorize, I think that MCAT is a little daunting. DAT was a little bit more fun for me.

But you know, so much has changed throughout the years. I don’t even know if like it’s the same anymore when I took it, you know?

MJ:

Yeah, I was talking to someone recently about the MCAT because this dates me, but they were just testing an essay part of it and I knew it wasn’t graded. So I didn’t try at all on it because it wasn’t graded. And I think I got like the lowest possible score on the essay. And I was telling them that like, yeah, they already phased that out. Like I was old enough to where I was there when they were testing it. And the next person I’m talking to says that’s already long gone. So maybe the DAT isn’t as fun.

JY:

I don’t even know if that fun part is in there anymore, the PAT part, so who knows? No, the carvings are actually, it’s not part of the DATs, but I heard of carvings for when you’re applying to dental school. It’s like a manual dexterity portion of their interview. But I don’t know if that’s phased out either because when I…

NP:

Did you have to do carvings for the DAT?

JY:

Interviewed I had no carvings but I heard about them so it might have been an old thing that got phased out as well.

NP:

Must be dating myself. Remember our last year of undergrad, a lot of the pre-dental students were sitting around. Admittedly, that was also in Canada. So I don’t know if maybe they were doing things slightly different or a slightly different timeline, but remember everybody sitting there with soap blocks in classes and like actually practicing their carvings. And I was like, what a weird time to pick up a hobby. And they were like, no, it’s for dentistry.

JY:

Yeah, in dental school there is a carving aspect. There is a carving, to get into a school, I don’t know if they do that anymore.

NP:

Sorry, very dating ourselves, sorry.

MJ:

That is fascinating. It does sound way more fun. We don’t do anything with soap, have to…

NP:

Way more active.

We didn’t get any soap blocks at all. It terrible. Just a lot of questions on physics we’ll never use and O chem that nobody will ever use.

JY:

Camera’s horrible.

MJ:

100%. Yeah, I actually had to take O chem twice. Just gonna throw that out there guys. I dropped out my first time around because I was gonna get a good grade. Took it again. And I was humble enough to take it a second time. And I was a little… Yeah, isn’t that humble of me to brag about how humble I am?

NP:

I was an O chem tutor, makes me, think persona non grata on this call with both of you.

MJ:

Yeah, you were a professional chemist, though, after undergrad. So that’s just a different level.

NP:

I was a semi-professional chemist. Yeah, couldn’t go full pro.

JY:

Goodness, I can’t imagine. Yeah, O chem was not a strong spot for me. I also dropped out because I thought I was gonna fail a class, took it again, I got—I think I got my lowest score in O chem. Yeah, not fun.

MJ:

It is, as they say, the weed out class. But here you are, successful. Alas. I’m curious on just the route of pediatric dentistry especially, walk us through the typical route. Are people going into private practice? Are they opening up a practice? Are they working in, you know, for the government? Like, walk us through your typical pediatric dentistry career track.

JY:

Yeah, so I don’t know if you guys know, but right after dental school, you’re free to practice dentistry. You can be a general dentist and do every specialty if you’re comfortable with that. Yeah, for pediatric dentistry, you are required to take two years. Some programs are up to three years of specialty training. And after that, you can decide if you want to go to private practice. You can teach for a dental school.

You can go into there’s corporate dentistry. There’s a lot of things you can do. Mainly people just right out of pediatric residency, find a job as an associate at either a private dentist or a corporate office. That’s kind of the route. And then in terms of dentistry, it’s a really fascinating career in a sense that you’re never full time anywhere. A lot of dentists kind of just do some days here, some days there, and they work at multiple offices. So it’s very rare that you have like Monday through Friday, nine to five job. It’s always like, I work some days here and some days there. And the dental community is really, really small. So, you know, if you say like, hey, I work at blah, blah, blah, most of the time, everyone knows what office that is, you know?

MJ:

Interesting. So on the practice ownership piece, obviously we support a lot of practice owners and lots of pediatric dentists that are practice owners. Is that something emphasized in residency or walk us through what that’s like?

JY:

Not at all. Yeah, you know, a major aspect of dentistry is like the people who want to own. There is no education on being like a business person or even managing being a leader and managing a team. And I have to say not everyone is cut out to be an owner or a leader. Because I’ve worked with some people who are just, you can tell when people are like natural born business people or leaders, you know? So there’s no training in that aspect. So if you want to become a business owner right out of residency, you really gotta find someone to mentor you, you know, and kind of take you under their wings. And it’s a lot to manage for one person. So resources like what Panacea offers is amazing. You know, because you don’t get that education anywhere at all. So it’s kind of like they throw you out and if you want to open a business you just kind of have to learn from the ground up.

MJ:

That’s really interesting because I know in the medical side, it’s probably even less. I was hoping that especially in a specialty like peds dentistry where the private practice is very prevalent, they would have a little bit more just baked in to the training on the basics on how to manage a business or, you know, manage any of the financial aspects. But it’s kind of a theme, I think, in all of medicine and dentistry and veterinary medicine. It’s just not—we don’t get that training no matter where it is.

JY:

Yeah, and you know just going like the route of being a business owner versus an associate dentist. It’s such a different world as well. And there’s obviously pros and cons. Like for me, I’ve always been an associate and I don’t plan on opening my own group because I just know myself and I am not a business person at all, you know? What I value is this work-life balance that an associate ship allows you to have. Like I love going to work and just focusing on the dentistry and I don’t worry about anything else. When I go home, I don’t think about dentistry. I’m just living my life outside of dentistry. But when you’re a business owner, you live and breathe it. It’s almost like your baby, your child. You have to be present to practice, but you also have to think about the business aspect. And that never ends. Like when you come home, you’re looking at the books, you’re analyzing everything. So you really have to be honest with yourself. Like I said, not everyone is cut out to be a business owner.

But some people, like you just know that business. They’re dentists, but they love the business aspect and those people are the ones that really thrive in that. You can’t force yourself to be like something that you’re not and it’s a lot to handle if you’re not prepared to deal with that stuff.

MJ:

That’s great. And also, too, I would imagine some people might not think they’re cut out. But then when they kind of get in as an associate and they see like, oh, like, I didn’t think I could do this, but I’m learning from a mentor or maybe it’s some skill that they’ve taken on in their group—that we see that a lot, too—or they’re not sure. So they go the associate route, work for a couple of years and they say, hey, I think I could do this. But it’s great, like you said, to be honest with yourself and say, like, especially right out, if you’re not sure, try to work as an associate or in corporate industry or something, just to get your feet wet and understand how it works. And then either way, you get to do a really cool job. That’s the cool thing about being a doctor. I always remind myself and others at the end of the day, no matter the stresses clinically, it is such an honor to be able to care for patients and it’s a really cool job.

Quite frankly, it’s…

JY:

It really is, and for parents to trust in us, like, you know, to support their kids is an amazing privilege. I do want to make a point of what you said was so, I think it’s so important because…

Yeah, you come out and a lot of people don’t realize, wait, I don’t like to be told what to do. I want to be able to dictate my own plans and have the materials that I want to use. So a lot of my friends also realize after being an associate that I don’t want to work for someone. I want to be my own boss. But there’s also a funny story where one of my program directors at Yale—now he’s the program director, but he was our clinical faculty—he realized that he just didn’t like to deal with parents like at all so he decided to go to academics just because he didn’t want to. He didn’t like the clinical aspect; he liked teaching and he didn’t want to deal with all the parents. So there’s always a way out and you just kind of have to pivot and see where what fits your personality.

MJ:

I think we wanted to ask some pediatric dentistry questions, but I’m gonna just lead off with this: as two pediatricians here, we refer a lot of patients to the pediatric dentist, and that means someone like yourself is on the receiving end of those referrals, and may or may not see some mistakes that pediatricians make that you’re like, man, why did they say that? Or why didn’t they do this? Or they should do this better. What message do you have to pediatricians on what we could do better for pediatric oral health?

JY:

I think that was an issue maybe 10 years ago, but I think it’s come a long way. I always refer to, we have AAPD, which is the American Academy of Pediatric Dentistry, and then you guys have AAPD. I don’t know if you use AAPD.

NP:

AAPD

JY:

Yes, exactly. So I like to look between the two to see what pediatricians are recommending and they’re pretty much aligned, you know. A lot of the times, there’s not much discrepancy. It’s not like you’re saying one thing and we’re the polar opposite, but I think a lot of the things that we want pediatricians to know is that

The earlier you get your children in, the better. I think I’ve had, I don’t know, what are your recommendations on seeing the dentist? Not to put you on the spot or anything.

MJ:

Well, I like to at least before two if they can. Once they start having teeth, you know, we’re doing, depending on the office, a fluoride varnish if we can. And then educating them on brushing at home and how to apply and how much to use and things like that. In reality, most of my patients aren’t seeing a dentist

by one or two. They’re waiting till closer to school age just for various reasons. Earlier the better, I think, is the…

JY:

Yeah, yeah, that’s kind of generally what we recommend as well. So, you know, by their first birthday—12 months of age or within six months of the first tooth erupting. So that’s pretty similar to basically what you said. We just kind of want to build those habits, you know? A lot of the times with babies who come in they’re like, what are you gonna do with my baby’s teeth? But it’s really the education and setting habits early that really kind of primes them for success later on.

NP:

I think there’s also, leading into my next question, in terms of habit setting, getting in front of those early is going to help because bad habits that play out until school age are going to be extra hard to break. And so are there any widespread myths about children’s dental care that you’d like to debunk to use our platform and say, please stop or, you know, like this, this is a TikTok nothing?

JY:

It drives me nuts. It’s like when I diagnose a cavity and they’re like, the teeth are gonna fall out anyway. And it just irks me. So the myth that, we don’t have to do anything with baby teeth because you’re just gonna lose them. A lot of people don’t realize that you have your baby teeth until you’re 12 years old. So it’s…

If I’m diagnosing a cavity at like three years old, that’s nine years that you’re gonna have that cavity grow, grow, grow, grow, grow, eventually cause some type of dental abscess, you know? There is basically a whole specialty devoted to pediatric dentistry, and if it wasn’t important, then it wouldn’t exist, you know? So I think there’s this—

NP:

We just start at adult dentistry.

JY:

Exactly, you know, children’s teeth are very important in terms of function, confidence at school, eating, sleeping. You don’t want it to get to a point where it’s past the point of no return and they’re feeling pain. The moment they feel pain, it’s too late, you know? A lot of things I get is like, you have a cavity but he doesn’t complain about it. Just the absence of pain is not like an indication that your child is okay, you know? And we don’t want to wait for pain because usually pain means some serious treatment. Either an infection is coming or you’re going to lose the tooth, you know.

NP:

Yeah, no, that would be devastating. Can’t imagine. I don’t think I’ve ever heard it. Maybe Michael has. He actually deals way more in the outpatient world than the inpatient world. I don’t do a ton with pediatric dentistry. I can’t imagine hearing the response of like, we’ll just let it fall out. It’s really not acceptable for other areas of—I don’t know if you’ve heard that, Michael, have you?

MJ:

I would love Ned to know the last time you talked to a patient about brushing their teeth as a hospitalist. Probably not something you’re dealing with.

NP:

Oral health is important in the intubated patient to prevent ventilator-associated pneumonias. That’s talking to the staff about oral health, not necessarily the parents themselves. Fair. So what, you know, talking to parents, you mentioned it, that even some staff members are talking to parents is an opportunity. Let’s say, you know, it’s three people who deal in pediatrics here, like it’s an opportunity.

MJ:

Fair.

NP:

Can be a challenge sometimes. What systems or structures do you use to try to communicate with parents, especially if you feel like there might be misalignment or they’re not understanding your expertise or where you’re coming from?

JY:

Yeah, that’s something I deal with almost every day. You see so many families and patients and parenting styles that everyone parents differently and everyone has a set of their own beliefs. And as a pediatric dentist, it’s my job to just educate, not push you towards anything. I just want to educate you. My biggest thing is…

I really want to understand where you’re coming from. There are a lot of, you—the big topic nowadays is anti-fluoride. And in terms of the pediatric world and dentistry, fluoride has shown to decrease childhood incidents of cavities, you know? So we know that it is beneficial in that aspect, but holistically, there’s other things coming up. So if a parent is uncomfortable with using fluoride,

You know, a lot of parents feel ashamed. They’re just like, no, we don’t use fluoride. And then they move on to the next topic. But it’s my job to be like, why? Like, what are your concerns about fluoride? Because if you’re not comfortable with this, let me show you an alternative. I don’t want you to just go, no fluoride. There’s alternatives that you might be okay with that are more in the natural realm that you might wanna use, you know? So I think opening up that discussion of like understanding why your patients are refusing certain things and educating them.

You know, the most I can do is just educate and it’s up to you. In dentistry, there’s this gray area. You know, you go to one dentist and one dentist will recommend a filling. Another dentist will be more conservative and be like, there’s something happening there, but let’s give you a chance to work on your oral hygiene and monitor that, you know? And to one parent, that’s like, if there’s a cavity, why aren’t you filling it?

But to another parent, that was like, you so much for not going in there. Let’s try this approach. So there’s a lot of, there’s no right and wrong in dentistry. I fully acknowledge that. So for a parent, I always give them options. Options is like a powerful thing for parents. It’s like, hey, we can do this filling if you don’t wanna worry about it, but we can also just monitor it, do a really good job of flossing, but know that it can get bigger the next time I see you and the treatment might change.

So it’s all about really understanding the reasons why your patients are like, what their preferences be basically.

NP:

Totally. And I love what you said at the beginning. It’s something we talk about all the time because Michael makes fun of me because I don’t do a lot of any outpatient medicine, but vaccines still do come up, right? So like vaccines and fluoride have been very popular the last four, five years now. I think actually five years now as of just this week. So have been all the talk for everybody all the time. And I really like that model that you described. Feel it back and get to a place of alignment. Like we all agree you want your child to be healthy. So

I may have information you don’t have, you may have a belief system I don’t understand, but we’re all kind of rallying around this piece of like, we all care that your child is healthy. So what works if you don’t like fluoride in the water, are there natural alternatives? If you don’t like this vaccine, is it because there are too many and you want to space them out? Do you have concerns? Just what can we do to share and try to meet and come to an agreement in the middle? I love that model.

MJ:

I literally had this happen yesterday to a vaccine hesitant parent specifically like a 13 year old and they had been fully vaccinated up until I think 10 or 11 and were due for meningitis and they had gotten exemption from school and it was like it was a very good conversation.

And it was just asking questions, having some humility, understanding that I don’t get everyone’s perspective, listening, providing information. Just like you said, like my job is to provide information, guide you to recommendations, but ultimately like I can’t control what you do or what you don’t do. And that builds rapport and then allows that person to trust you and then do a much better job and have a much better patient-centered relationship, which is exactly in line, I think, with what you were talking about. I love that.

Go ahead Ned. I wanted to, can I? Can I do it?

NP:

Are you getting into the rapid fire?

Are you ready? You’re itching for it. You’re itching for it. Can see you. I know you.

MJ:

So we have some true and false statements. So I’ll say a statement and Judy you will say if you believe it’s true or false. Okay. Are you ready for this? These are like quick. God.

JY:

I guess I’m ready.

MJ:

Okay, first one. Pacifiers are the devil for a child’s teeth. False. Okay, Halloween is the worst holiday. True or false?

JY:

False.

MJ:

Really? What do you think? Dennis, I thought, hey, Halloween.

JY:

Love it because kids don’t show up—they’re out trick-or-treating—so I get a little break from seeing patients.

NP:

So good for you professionally. Yeah.

JY:

I would say I’m a very unconventional pediatric dentist. I love candy. And I am living proof that you can eat candy and still have good oral health. I’m not saying eat candy every single day 24/7, but you can still maintain a good balance. Let me be a prime example of that. Just because I’m a dentist doesn’t mean I don’t dabble in some candy here and there. I actually love candy.

MJ:

Okay, I had a dentist who would, you could trade in your candy for some sort of, yes.

JY:

We do that. Yeah, we definitely do that every year. Yeah.

NP:

Then you eat the candy though. Like that feels like you’re then getting the candy.

JY:

Honestly, Ned, you’re not far off from the truth. There’s a stack of candy there and we donate to the troops. But sometimes when it’s afternoon and I’ve had a busy day, I need that afternoon pick-me-up and maybe I’ll reach for that candy that’s like five feet away from me.

MJ:

That is awesome. Next true or false: Pediatric oral health has been improving over time. True or false? The left coast is the best coast.

JY:

Thanks. Think about the left coast?

MJ:

The left coast, yeah. West coast, you know the kids these days, they call it the left coast.

JY:

Is that what they call it nowadays? I have to think about it.

MJ:

I don’t live over there, okay? So I’m just guessing what’s cool. Clearly I’m not.

JY:

For sure. That’s right, Michael, you gave me — I had to think about it. I was like, are you saying your coast is better? I was like, no, the left is us. I believe I said that line to you, Michael, before.

MJ:

You probably, maybe I did hear it from you because you are cool and I’m not. So that is, that’s how I picked up on that.

NP:

It did not come from Michael. That is for sure.

MJ:

The kids tell me this phrase is really neat. I am actually, said neat and I also learned this week what no cap means. That puts me, Ned doesn’t know. See, he doesn’t know.

JY:

Can you explain that to us? Because I still don’t know what that means.

MJ:

It basically means, and feel free to chime in here, email [email protected] if you have issues with this. But it means like lying, so no cap. I eat candy as a dentist, no cap. That means like I’m not lying. I think I’m saying that correctly. I’m not sure. I did check with my 11-year-old son today about my use of it and I told a horrible joke. I’m just gonna tell it on this podcast, okay?

I’m also ashamed to say my kids ate a cereal that has a pirate character on the front and I said I feel bad for this person because he’s always cappin and that was a cappin crotch. It’s terrible. No one laughed.

I did try.

NP:

You did try. You did ask Gen Z to email us, which also speaks to like, you’re just total misalignment. Like, hey, can you guys send me a fax to explain no cap like that?

MJ:

Please comment below. True or false: Most kids are scared of the dentist.

JY:

I would say false, and I have a comment. I think most parents are scared of the dentist. If kids just have zero, like they just come in, it’s great, it’s fun for them. It’s the parents that kind of instill that fear that they had when they were children. And that’s kind of what pediatric dentistry seeks to change. It’s not so much teeth and fixing teeth. It’s about kind of harboring that positive relationship with dentistry and like, you know the office I work at, it’s kind of like Disneyland — you get a balloon, you get a prize, you get this and that, you get these certificates, and most… Believe it or not, this misconception of kids hate the dentist, parents always come to me and they’re like, they’re so excited to come, you know? It’s like it has changed a lot throughout the years. I mean, when I was a child I didn’t even go to a pediatric dentist. I didn’t even know that pediatric dentists existed. So if I had the experience that these kids have nowadays, I can see why it’s that fear of the dentist is gonna change.

MJ:

And what’s interesting is your story started that you loved your orthodontist. So how many people are going to go to your office, love the pediatric dentist, and now you’re influencing the next generation of… That’s super cool. I will say our pediatric dentist is great here. I was told last time I wasn’t there, but my youngest refused to open her mouth and refused to sit on the table.

JY:

Exactly, yeah. That’s the goal, you know?

MJ:

And so I was also told that I have to be the one that goes with them next time. So I apologize. I’m sure you deal with that all the time of kids who are just…

JY:

Heard. They’re like, I’ve heard that, they do better with their dad or they do better with their mom or like, we’re gonna have grandma bring them in. Like, it’s a strategy and I’m, I’m all for it.

MJ:

Yeah, well, I don’t know if I’ll do much better, but we’ll see next time. Yes, she was happy she got a prize at least for doing — I’m not sure what.

JY:

Sometimes a win is just like sitting in the chair and we’re like, okay, cool. That’s a win for today. Come back and we’ll try a mirror next time, you know? With kids, you kind of have to adapt.

MJ:

That’s a great point. See, Ned and I are half pediatrician, half internist. So we’re like pretty optimistic and happy-go-lucky, but then also part of us is like a little cynical. So it’s just a good combination of both. Much happier. Two more questions, the rapid fire. One is, if I had to do it over again, I would choose to be a dentist, true or false? True. Next is, keeping a child on bottle feeds is bad for dental development.

JY:

For dental development.

MJ:

Okay, what is like you are hard and fast? You should absolutely not use a bottle.

JY:

So that’s hard for me to say because I like to be kind of like flexible with that. You know, it’s easy for me to say like cut it off, but at home it’s a different story, you know? So for me, I’m always, okay, you know, bottle feeding, it’s… Even breastfeeding too. It’s important for a growing infant for sure, hands down, you know? But there’s things you can do to mitigate the increasing their chances of getting cavities. So you can dilute the milk with water. Whatever goes in the bottle, eventually, whatever goes in the bottle should be just pure water, if possible. But if they’re drinking milk, you can slowly wean them off by diluting a little bit of water. Or if they’re completely set with milk in the bottle, at least have a wet cloth on the side to wipe off their teeth.

With cavities and like nighttime specifically, bottle drinking is when, you know, the milk when they’re laying down all the milk pools at the front of their teeth and the longer and milk is healthy but it’s also a carb, breaks down as a carbohydrate that eats away at the enamel. So it’s mostly the duration that the teeth is getting bathed in any type of carbohydrate whether it’s juice whether it’s milk it doesn’t matter. How healthy it is, it breaks down as a carbohydrate, you just wanna prevent it from sitting there for long periods of time. And you know, when you’re sleeping specifically, the saliva’s not cleansing the teeth off, as it should be. It’s just kind of for 12 hours straight, it’s just like nothing’s happening in the mouth other than the milk sitting there. So that’s when your teeth are more exposed to getting cavities.

MJ:

Absolutely, I that makes a lot of sense and I totally agree. We have one final question. We ask every guest that Ned’s gonna ask. And so we’ll close out with this.

NP:

What is the most recent thing that you’ve changed your mind about?

JY:

Ooh, recent thing about, in terms of dentistry or in general?

NP:

In general, in general, this is an era of people staking very firm positions and not wavering from them. And so we find it important to understand how our guests are changing their mind and what’s made them change their mind.

JY:

My goodness, let’s see.

MJ:

It’s a hard question. It’s a legit hard question.

JY:

Yeah, well I guess, I guess I’ll stick to dentistry but oil pulling, oil pulling, heard, I don’t know if you guys heard about that.

MJ:

Tell us.

NP:

I don’t know.

JY:

Okay, so there’s a practice, you know, everyone’s going towards homeopathic. There’s a, not a trend, but in India, I believe it’s really popular where they have oil, they pull oil in their mouth and they swish it for about 20 minutes. And it’s supposed to help with preventing cavities. And there are studies that, you know, when I used to hear that when I’m practicing, I was like, don’t do it. Like, just don’t do it, you know?

But there’s a misconception, I guess. There’s studies that show it’s a long tradition in India in preventing cavities. And yes, I believe it kind of changes up the oral flora in your mouth. And it kind of trends towards the better bacteria in your mouth that are less susceptible to getting cavities.

So I always say you can incorporate that into your oral hygiene routine, but it’s not a complete replacement. And again, you can do a lot of things to prevent cavities, but once you actually have a cavity, which is essentially a hole in your tooth, there’s no amount of oil pulling that can take that cavity away. At that point, you gotta intervene with some type of treatment or restorative option.

You know, now I’m changing my mind. I’m like, hey, go for it if you want to, but it’s not a complete replacement and it doesn’t take away cavities. It can prevent cavities if you want to incorporate that. So I’m not like whenever I hear that, I’m just like, no, you know, but now it’s like, okay, if that, if you want to do that, go for it, you know.

NP:

That’s fascinating. Thank you. I had not heard of that. Totally news to me. I like it. I appreciate you changing your mind on that. I think sometimes obviously the impression is, you know, those trained in traditional medicine, like don’t have space for complementing your alternative methods. I generally, in my practice, I find that untrue. I know Michael does too. I’m glad to hear that, you know, like all of us are flexible enough to understand that if it’s helping a patient, you know, who cares where it comes from, you know, it does not need to be farmer derived at all.

Yep.

MJ:

So tell us a little bit, Judy, if people want to find, I didn’t talk a lot about your social media, but I don’t know if you want to talk about that and where could people follow you?

JY:

Yeah, like as my side hobby I do dabble in social media content creation where I help educate families on proper oral hygiene and maybe some dental tips, maybe throw in a little bit of humor here and there. You can find me on Instagram at DrDoCtor.GirlfriendGirLFriend.

MJ:

At Dr. Girlfriend on Instagram. Okay, awesome. Well, this is great. I’ve learned a lot personally. It’s been very fun. Thank you for taking time in your busy schedule to chat today and thanks for coming on.

NP:

Thank you, Judy.

JY:

Great time. Thank you so much.

MJ:

Thanks for joining us this episode and you can catch the podcast for Doctors by Doctors on Apple, Spotify, YouTube, and all the other major podcasting platforms. If you enjoyed this episode or learned anything here today, please take a moment to give us a rating and subscribe so that you don’t miss a single episode release. To submit topic suggestions or guest suggestions or questions, can reach us at [email protected]. As always, thanks for listening and the next time you see a doctor, maybe you should prescribe them this podcast. See you next time.

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